SPEAKER_01 0:00

Well, our next VO boardroom member has spent 30 years on the other side of the auditioning, listening to thousands of voices and helping clients find exactly the right one. Mary Lynn Wisner is an award-winning casting director and the founder of Voices Voice Casting. Since 1990, she's cast thousands of performers and thousands of productions, including everything you could imagine: commercials, animation, video games, films, audiobooks, e-learning, promo, narration, and more. She's also, as you may know, a respected coach, director, consultant, and demo producer who brings a rare perspective to voice actors. She knows exactly what happens after you hit send. And in this VO boardroom session, Mary Lynn is going to take us inside the voiceover casting process from start to finish. We'll find out how actors are selected to audition, what happens when she gets the auditions in, and who makes the final decision and why certain voices rise above the pile while others don't. Mary Lynn, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

It's a pleasure to have you. I, you know, I was thinking about this whole process, and I want to, I think I want to start here. You know, when a voice actor uh intakes a project, there's certain information that we need to know when we're building a quote. How does that happen on the casting side? When you meet with a new ad agency or a new producer, a new client, uh, what information do they typically give you? And what do you then kind of have to taffy pull out of them? What's what's the bare minimum that you need in order to cast a project well?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

I like the taffy pull idea. Um the bare minimum. Well, first place, if it's if it is a new client, I do kind of like to get to know them a little bit and sort of, you know, how they find me and that sort of thing. Um, but what I like to find out is sort of what their vision is and what the message is for that particular campaign, that commercial. Let's just say we're talking commercials. Um so sometimes if I can glean some of that from them, then I start to get an idea of maybe where the voice should go and what they're thinking of in the voice. A lot of times I have found historically, a lot of producers they don't really know the kind of voice they want. They have an idea of the voice they want. And when you start with, well, what is your vision for the spot and what is the message you want to get across? Sometimes that opens up their minds a little bit to like, oh, well, maybe if we do go with a really raspy, you know, older, gruffy voice, that won't work with that message. You know, so it kind of gets them to dig a little bit deeper and kind of open up their imaginations. Um one thing I sort of found working with ad agency producers, a lot of them they sometimes have the vision in their head, but it doesn't always translate to a voice. So our job as casting directors is to sort of give them those ideas. That's why a lot of times we will use celebrity prototypes because I will ask them, oh, well, are you thinking more like a Sam Elliott when you want that deep, raspy voice or something a little bit more, you know, like a storyteller, whatever it is. So I will try to just pick and pick and pick their brain as much as possible to the message they're trying to get across in this campaign and and then go from there to the type of voices and then give them ideas. And I find that that usually opens them up a little bit more. And and they kind of like that. I've I've I've never really found a producer that you know resisted that idea or that approach.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

So when you're when you're collaborating like that, is it more common for uh like a creative director to come in the door with a pretty precise idea of what they want? Or do they do most of the time, because most of the time, is it more collaborative between you and the stakeholders on that side?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Most of the time they come in with an idea of what they want, but then I sort of flesh it out a little bit more with them, just because I I want to cover my bases too. And I I will always throw in a ringer or two, you know, like maybe I'll throw in a woman when they thought they only wanted a guy's voice. And it's su it's worked sometimes. I love doing that. Um, but I think that's again, I think that's part of what my job is, is to sort of, you know, poke a little bit and go, well, I just thought of this gal, because she has this, she has the same sound, but she's a female, you know. Um but again, they hired me, so I have to always defer to them. And depending on my relationship with that producer, because some of them are way more open-minded, some aren't. Um, I can play around with that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

So once you've gone through that process and you now have a pretty good understanding of the project, how do you then decide which uh agents or maybe even which individual actors are gonna get that audition?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

My brain, it's funny. My brain is when I'm talking to the producer, I'm already casting in my head. It's just the way my brain, I'm already going, oh, that, you know, I just I automatically just start writing names down. I'm like, that's Paul, Bill, Joe, Steve, da, da, da. And then the more we fine-tune it, sometimes I'll go, no, maybe that's not Steve, you know, or whatever. Then I'll reach out to the agents. Um, again, it it all sort of depends too on the casting budget. If they have a really small budget, I have to limit, you know, who I reach out to. If it's, you know, really small budget, really small talent budget, you know, or in non-union or whatever the particulars are that way, that also determines who I reach out to.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

So potentially you could have a very small project with a very small pool of actors or maybe even one or two agents, or you know, it could be one of those huge, mass national cattle calls. When you get one of those, the big fish, how in God's name do you sift through that mountain of auditions and be well, like what is the process where you're being how how do you cut everything down to get to the handful or the short list of folks that you then send on to the client?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

I do have a process and it's worked for me. Um, I think most casting directors do this because, yeah, say it is a massive project, and I'm getting um, in fact, I just recently cast one last week where it was, you know, no holds barred. And I I think for one voice, I I think I got, I want to say close to 800 submissions, and they all sound the same to me. You know, that's what you have to remember as the voice actor, and it's and I mean that with all due respect. It's because you fit the specs. So you're all gonna sound the same one way or another. You know, yeah, she might have a little more of a raspy voice or she might not, or deeper, you know. But what you want to do as the voice actor is acknowledge that and go, okay, I know I'm gonna probably sound like all these other gals. What can I do to be different? So my process is I will get all those submissions and I'm pretty good at it because I've been doing it so long. I on the first pass of those 800, I only listen to your first line. Boom, boom, boom, boom. I go through it that, like that. Sometimes the first, second line or whatever. And I can I just have a, I can hear it, you know. I can just hear it, and I'll go, oh, short list, nope, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, like that. So I usually will take, let's say, that 800, and after listening to everybody's first and second lines, maybe I'll I'll narrow that down to usually my top 50 to 60. Then I'll go and listen to those 50 or 60 um submissions, whatever they sent me, take one, two, three, four, whatever they sent, I'll listen to the whole thing. Then I usually narrow that down to my top, depending on what the client wants. Most clients nowadays never ask for more than say 25-ish submissions from me. Um, some will say a little bit more, but it I usually don't send more than 30, maybe 35 at the most. Um, because there's just no need. And so I usually narrow that down. And then I'll keep those ones I didn't pick and kind of keep them as my B section just in case they go, hey, are there any more or or whatever? So that's sort of my technical process.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

And as you're working through that, what makes an audition jump out at you and go, ooh? What makes you go, ooh?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

It's not always it's not always the voice, because everybody worries, oh, my voice, you know, and they're not worried, they're not thinking about the acting. It's one of my criteria is does it is is she talking to me? Or I always kind of go, my other thing is, do I feel like I'm eavesdropping on her conversation? Those are kind of my two things. And you, you know, a lot of actors don't think that that's that noticeable. But when you're somebody in my position where you're listening back to, you know, hundreds of first lines, it's really noticeable when they're not doing that. At least to me. I mean, maybe just because my brain is trained that way, but it's really noticeable when you're just reading versus talking to me.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

In addition to that, is there anything else on that flip side of the coin that almost every time we'll get an actor bounced out of consideration?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Poor uh recording quality. You know, like I I again, you know, just I it was yesterday we were listening to back to a bunch of auditions. I was sort of floored, even coming from some of the top agents, that there were a few people that their sound quality was so poor, um, either I could barely hear it, like the gain wasn't turned up enough, or maybe the environment they recorded, I'm not sure. So I kind of wondered like, did the agents listen back to this or their whomever? Um, and if I know the actor, I will reach out to the actor directly and just go, hey, you know, that's one of the beauties of coaching. I I have so many people's emails, you know, hey, I just got your audition. I really think you have a shot at this, but please fix this, this, and that. But if I don't have the time, um I just can't do it. And I toss the audition. So that that's something that really surprises me, even to this day, because there's so many coaches and advice out there, and that's one thing people always say is make sure your sound is good or you know, your what you're sending in sounds good. So that will get you knocked out immediately. And then kind of going back to what I was saying originally, that that sound of reading to me, uh, because I I hear it. There's a there's a definite way we as humans hit those first syllables. I call it the hard start. And it's almost jarring to me. I don't know if other people notice it the way I do, and I'm just like, oof, done. So uh it's it's brutal in that, you know, the way I have to kind of do that, but that's kind of the way we do it. You know, it's just it's it's worked.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

So you've worked through the process. You've cut sometimes a mountain of auditions down to maybe the best 15, 20, 25 or so. What happens next? Who hears them? Who weighs in, who often is the ultimate decision maker? It's you or is it the client?

SPEAKER_00 11:30

It's sometimes it's both. Um, depending on, again, on my relationship with the client. So most of the time it's the ad agency and then their relationship with their client who will end up picking the talent. Sometimes um I have ad agency producers that will come back to me and say, okay, we can't decide, Marilyn, between um Paul and Steve and Joe. What do you know about these guys? So if I know the actor, again, this is one of the benefits of me having been around a long time and then coaching a lot of people, I just I know who's who, or you know, I just you just know. I'll say, Oh, well, the great thing about Paul is he's got this really extensive improv background. He's from Second City. You know, if I can be any kind of advocate for the actor, that's what I do. And I love doing that. And Tom, he was on a soap opera, and you didn't, you know, whatever I can do, because I think that's part of my job, I will try to do it. If I don't know, I'll say, let me get right back to you. And I reach out to the agent, I'm like, give me a little scoop on Bill. You know, what's his, what's his story? Because I want, I want my client to book somebody because then they'll come back to me, you know, to to cast. So that that's always a good thing. Um, so those are kind of the two, you know, main ways that get chosen. I do have a few ad agency people that I work with, and they will come to me and say, Okay, these are our three choices based on our specs. Who would you pick? And I'd say, Oh, let's go with Paul. Great, welcome. Um, and then I have a couple of well, I don't know, maybe it's about four ad agencies I've worked with for a really long time. And they just have me cast for them and they'll just say, Okay, send us the demo, or they don't even do really the it's kind of interesting. They don't even really do auditions. They just hire me and they'll say, Here's what we're looking for. Um, just send us like four guys auditioning this. That's all they want to hear. And then who would you pick? Yeah, okay, yeah, we like him, but what do you think about Steve or something? So it's it's kind of depends on my relationship with the producers or the agency. But the most popular way is they choose and then get back to me and let me know who they've chosen, and then I reach out to that talent or their agent.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

So that kind of delves into my next question, which was uh, how important is a voice actor's reputation and uh an existing, maybe pre-existing relationship with you when you're thinking about who do you want to invite to this audition?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Aaron Powell It's important, you know. Uh I mean there's a personal level, but there's also a professional level. Um my job is to find the best voice. I might not like somebody on a personal level, but if they have the best voice for it, I'm still gonna submit them, you know, because again, like I said, I that's my job. Um there's very few people in the industry that I just kind of stay away from, you know, but but for the most part, uh that's my job, you know, and so my job is to find the best voice. Now, there are people out there, and and I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, who I think, what in the world are they thinking they can do voiceover? Or who told them they could do this, and um they their agent maybe submits them, um submits them, and I'm still I'm sort of thinking, why did, you know, but then I sometimes think, okay, well, maybe that's just me. I don't know, but I will listen to their audition and make that determination.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

We and this is mostly I think for for newer, but maybe even intermediate or advanced voice actors, we throw around this word in this business so liberally conversational. When a when a client comes to you and says, Mary Lynn, we're looking for somebody really conversational, what are they actually trying to communicate?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Not sounding reedy. And that's that it kind of goes back to what I was talking about earlier when I'm listening back to your audition, where I'll say, Does it sound like he's reading to me or does it sound like he's talking to me? And honestly, and I tell tell students this all the time in in talent, that I think voiceover commercials is the hardest acting genre there is. Because you have to take this little piece of advertising that's 10, 20, 30, 60 seconds long, make it sound like it's a conversation, but it's written really selly because they are selling something. How do you do that? And that's why it is so important to be able to act, to be able to do the little tick tips and tricks and the techniques that make you not sound like you're reading. Because a piece of advertising, if you just read it and don't act it, will always sound like you're reading it. It's hard not to make it, it's hard to make it sound conversational. So that's what they really mean. They mean, I, you know, the ad person, I always sort of envision them going, I know, I'm sorry, it's a total piece of advertising. But just make it sound like you know, you were sitting there having breakfast and talking. You know, so there's tricks and things you can do to do that, but the actor has to learn how to do that, and that's where the acting comes in and training comes in.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

So let's say you get in two or three, you know, on a short list, and the client and you are having a little bit of trouble deciding. Oftentimes, my understanding from casting directors is this that I won't say all the time, but sometimes it happens that the person that did the strongest audition may not have been right for the role. Talk about a little bit, if you can, what right for the role means.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah, that's that's the big question. Um sometimes it, you know, it's a sound, you know, it's it's the way they just nuanced one word. I sometimes I don't know. Like when I some send in my submissions to my client, I will often pick, you know, my top favorites. You know, I'm a very anal Virgo, so I'm always making notes and lice listen categories and things. Um, and so I'll say, you know, I make little notes like, oh, he did this, I liked this, or whatever. And sometimes my top pick is not their top pick, and it's they sometimes pick somebody who I was like, really? Oh, okay. You know, so it's kind of personal. I've had producers sometimes say, uh, yeah, we liked Paul's read, but I dated a guy named Paul, and he was such a not a good person. I'm never gonna book, you know, and I'm like, really?

unknown 18:03

Really?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

I trust me, I've heard everything. I have heard everything. So um I've had clients pick somebody because they like the sound of their last name. You know, I it's amazing to me. Sometimes it's just things that happen.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

I tell my stories all the time. Sometimes you're gonna get a role because you reminded somebody of their Aunt Edna, and sometimes you're gonna lose a role because you reminded somebody of their Aunt Edna.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah. It's a hundred percent that I think that kind of goes back to your question. It's really a crapshoot. We don't know. Um, and then sometimes that's why a lot of times celebrity casting, they think they want this certain celebrity because the way they were in this particular movie. But, you know, honestly, most celebrities are not really good at voiceover commercials. You know, that's why you you only kind of hear a handful of regular celebrities doing voiceovers, you know, because they get it. The other ones, they're gonna be a one-off or something. They got paid a lot of money, but they're only gonna be a one-off because they just they just read it.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Here's a question that I, to this day, still struggle with. How much freedom, and how does an actor know when they get a when they get an audition in, how much freedom does the actor have to maybe uh veer from the spec a little bit? Some coaches have told me flat out, don't worry about the specs. Everything you need to know is in the copy. Other coaches have told me, no, pay very close attention to the specs. How much freedom do we have? How closely should we be paying attention to the specs? And when do we know when it's okay to add lib and when not?

SPEAKER_00 19:42

I get that question all the time. And I always very sarcastically say, I guarantee you a casting director never told you not to add lib because we know it's okay. Nobody's ever gotten in trouble for it. Um, usually people are coaches that say, Don't do that, you're disrespecting the copywriter. They're usually people that don't cast. Um now, there is a caveat. There are a couple casting directors I know out there that do not like when people add lib, and and that's fine, that's their thing. I always promote it, especially when it's a real person read. You know, it's supposed to be one of those first person or funny snarky things. Um, and yeah, and when it's one of those wry, dry, snarky, you know, tongue-in-cheek reads. I always promote it because what it does is it makes your audition stand out. They're not going to use your ad lib in the session. They can't, especially if it's a union job. They're not, but it got you noticed, you know, and what you have to remember, and what I always tell actors is remember that first line. We're listening to your first line, and everybody's doing, you know, bada bada ba, bada bada ba, but, you know, the same thing. It's like a broken record. And then all of a sudden, here comes Paul, and he's like, wait a minute, I gotta say this, bada blah, whatever your intro was, your lead-in. You just woke up that board-jaded casting director, and I'm like, oh wow, he's good at improv. Short list. So that's I always do that. And I will tell you in my 36 years of casting, I have never ever had an ad agency, producer, copywriter, account exec come back to me and say, Oh my God, I can't believe they ad-lived and improved. I'm so mad. They don't say that. Um now, sometimes you'll see hints in the copy, in the specs, and they'll say, stick to the copy. Obviously, then of course, stick to the copy, respect that. Um, or they'll say, feel free to improv, show off your comedy skills. Those are code for ad lib, improv, you know, veer a little bit. Um, I'm always telling actors, do all that fun stuff on your first take, and then on take two, don't do it. You know, stick straight to the copy. That way they can hear both takes. They can hear, you can be the same guy in take two, but you're just not adding the Paul isms, you know, whatever it is that you wanted to add. So that's my feeling. Um, it's showing that producer, who is usually ultimately the one that's going to direct you at the session, that you're gonna be fun at the session. You've got some acting chops. It's a very divisive, deliberate trick, um, but it works, you know. Um, and again, there's certain casting directors, there's a few of them I know that usually there's one I'm in particular I'm thinking of that doesn't like it, and that's totally her thing, and that's okay. So just know if you got a script from her, okay, I'm not gonna do it. But you can find other ways to do it. You can kind of change up a uh like the tweaking of a word in the first line or something. There are things you can do to manipulate that first line or two without adding words. So that again comes from having an improv background and an acting background.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Well, you've been very kind to share your expertise with the VO boardroom audience. I want to wrap up with this, Mary Lynn, because we talk about this in the Vio Pro community a lot. An actor gets does a great audition, gets on a short list, maybe even gets put on hold for a day. Doesn't book the job. From your perspective, what what should an actor take from that?

SPEAKER_00 23:17

That is frustrating, I know. That is just as good as a booking. I mean, I know that's sort of lame and you don't you're not getting a check. But it it it came down to something like again, kind of what we were talking about earlier, it could have been a personal thing, it could have just been like uh we just don't know. So I always say that's a that to me is considered like a booking without the money. You know, you it's so pat yourself on the back. That's good, that's good. A callback is good, a hold is good, and a veil is good. Um, yeah, it's frustrating because it's not actually a booking and it's not a paycheck, but it means you're doing something right. It means you got noticed, it means you made all the cuts. So it's it's encouragement. I hope that helps. Um it does.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

And maybe it just means you got Aunt Ednard, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

I mean, I love that. You got Aunt Aunt Edmund. And it makes you and you know, it for your reps, they're like, okay, well, she, you know, he he's getting noticed, you know, whatever. That's good. They they notice those things. And it, I'll tell you, it's really hard to get bookings now because there's just so many people in voiceover. I mean, when I started many years ago, there just wasn't. It was such a sure thing. Um, it's really difficult to get bookings now. So, you know, you don't be so hard on yourself. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

I think that's a great way to end. Uh, Mary Lynn Wisner, always I always, always, always learn a ton whenever I'm in the room with you. And I really thank you for spending time with us on the VO boardroom today. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Thank you for having me, and thank you to everybody, and have fun.