SPEAKER_01 0:00

Well, our next VO Boardroom board member is not only a close personal friend, but she's an accomplished voice actor. She is an entrepreneur. She's a voiceover business educator. She's been a commercial producer, and she's seen behind the scenes on that side of the business. And I think that gives her a unique perspective and qualifies her to talk about the topic that we're going to tackle today, and that is negotiation and VO rates. Please welcome the lovely and brilliant Derv Latrina. Derv, how are you, hon?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Great. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Well, we're pleased to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

I know everyone is so thrilled to talk about pricing and negotiating.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Well, here's the reason. Uh it can be an uncomfortable topic, but uh if you don't know your way around the negotiation table uh and you're know your way around your own rate card, much less industry standard rates, you're gonna leave hundreds, potentially thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table over the course of your career. That's why I think it's an important topic, and that's why uh I'm excited to have you here today. Um You've had kind of a you're you're you and I are similar in that we had sort of a meandering path into voiceover, but you passed through the other side of the glass and you were on the on the other side as a commercial producer. So talk about how that sort of informs how you negotiate when you're sitting down to write a quote for a client.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Well, it helps that I've been on the other side of things. So whenever someone, a producer comes to me, for example, I kind of understand what's going on in their head. They're juggling a million other things, and I'm just like a little piece of the puzzle. And what actually I think is really important, and it's a huge distinction that really helps people from a psychological standpoint is as a producer, rather than like the director, for example, I'm kind of timelines, budgets, all that stuff. And to me, you're just kind of another line on the spreadsheet of the budget of hundreds of other line items. So many times there have been actors or voice actors that we want for a spot and their rate is higher than we have budgeted. And I'm like, okay, well, I'll just go in and, you know, maybe we don't need $1,000 for snacks. We could cut that down to $750. Okay, there's $250 extra dollars. Maybe, you know what? I think I was overstating how much we're going to be paying for like parking fees, right? For shoot days. So yeah, I can probably take a bit from there. So there is almost always room in the budget to work with. And so that's one thing. But then also it's it's a very different um mind game whenever you're pitching yourself as the product as well. So I have a background in sales across, you know, I was a music booking agent. I've worked in real estate. I even, you know, like worked in restaurants where you had to upsell. Like I feel like I've had sales in my whole life, but um I was always selling some, either like an artist that I was representing or a product, like a house or a building or something. And the minute that I switched to selling myself, there's a whole other mind game that goes on. And I I know a lot of other people, they they stress about that because it's instantly, they're collapsing my worth with how much you're willing to pay for it and all that stuff. And the minute you're able to separate that and see it as this is just a product, this they're just negotiating the price. That's it. If they want you, if they've gotten to the point where they're talking to you, they want you. Now it's just a matter of, okay, what's the price that we can settle on? That's fair for both sides.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Why do so many voice actors chronically undercharge?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I think they're afraid of losing the job, which I will say that if they don't like your voice, they're not going to book you anyway. Or they just don't understand that there are industry standard rates. So even if you're non-union, there's the GVAA um rate guide, the Global Voice Acting Academy rate guide, or the Gravy for the Brain rate guide. There are industry standard rates for different things, and people just don't understand sometimes that that's that that is a thing. And I like to think of it like this if you are selling, just again, putting yourself back as a product, right? Just say, like, you've built this great microphone, for example. It's you've put all this time and effort into creating this great thing, but you're not going to sell it at a much discounted rate compared to it's all the other microphones out there. You, there's an industry standard rate for a certain type, for a certain quality. And if you've gotten the training and you the if the client likes your voice, they want your voice and they should be willing to pay industry standard rates.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

You mentioned before that there's a different mind game when we're uh, you know, in air quotes selling ourselves. How do we even reframe the whole sort of discussion around quotes and pricing and rates and negotiation?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

What I still will do this sometimes, especially if it's a newer buyer, I'll lean on the rate guides. So in the email, if they come back with a really low rate, I'll say, you know, according to the industry standard rates, and then in brackets, put a link to it. Uh, you know, this is typically what the a rate for this usage should be. Is there any way that we can kind of um, you know, bump it up closer to that rate or something like that? I it's so it feels from a psychological standpoint, again, like from a confidence standpoint, it's so much easier to lean on that because you're like, it's not me making these rates. Like these, you can go see for yourself. And I find that helps a lot.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

So there's uh an ongoing argument, and I think you know which side of the argument I'm on, that uh around this question of, okay, if I'm brand new, then shouldn't I charge significantly less to quote unquote get my foot in the door? What side of the argument are you on?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Well, do you want to be seen as a professional or not? I guess it's like that. If you and what what ballpark do you want to play in? Do you want to play in those super low-paying jobs where they're indie developers? Sure, maybe cut your teeth on there, but a lot of voice, a lot of voice actors aren't at the point where they their performance skills are up to scratch, but a lot of them are, and they don't realize that it's just a different market that you have to go for. Put yourself in front of the people that are professionals that are doing this day in, day out. They don't mind paying professional rates.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

So I'm uh I'm a sorry.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

And further to that, um also those smaller like pain clients, the ones that don't really know what they're talking about, and they want to get, you know, five, it's only five minutes of audio. Here's 20 bucks. They're quickly, more and more rapidly going to AI. So it's also a pool that's not really going to exist soon enough as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Right. Right. So I'm a I'm a newer voice actor, let's say, and I'm not super familiar with quoting and maybe even the G Vou A rate guide, or if I'm in the UK, maybe it's uh gravy for the brain or Mia in uh Australia and New Zealand. Uh let's say I don't have a great frame of relevant of uh reference developed. What's the top one or two mistakes that I'm likely to make and how do I avoid those?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

One, this is for commercial use typically. Um maybe not non-broadcast, but like broadcast type things. Always split your fee into a session fee and a usage fee. Uh, there have been a few times, it doesn't happen that often, but there's been a few times where I booked a job and it's a very nice paying job, but they I go in, I record it, and then the campaign, the campaign gets put on hold, or they end up going in a different direction. And at least at that point, fine, I'm not getting the usage anymore, but at least I'm being compensated for the session, the time, the work that I put into it.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

So there's uh there's probably a a myriad of ways, maybe dozens if we sat down and put our heads together and listed them all, that a voice actor can sort of set themselves up for failure or set themselves up to be burned. If you, if I sat down and and and waterboarded you and said, Dervla, give me one way that a voice actor can protect themselves better than any other, what would you say? Insofar as getting whether that's contractually, whether that's setting expectations with the client. How do I how do I protect myself and my business when I'm sitting down to build a quote and negotiate a rate with a client?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Make sure that all the terms are clear. What exactly are they getting whenever you sign, whenever you decide to work together? And that could be, you know, everything from is there a directed session involved or is it a self-record? How many pickups are complementary? Like I personally will say um you get one set of uh minor pickups. Any script changes are an additional cost. So make sure you just have all of that stuff laid out. I always like to throw in some AI wording too, like you can't use my voice for anything AI unless I give you permission, sort of thing. Um, but I think and and it also sets you up to look more professional. And then there's no misunderstandings down the road. So if you can get a contract signed, great. I know that that can be tricky sometimes. And I'm not a lawyer, but I have been told many times that even just having it in writing, even in an email, just something to go back to to say, you did agree to this, this is what we have written down. It's just gonna make it kind of like insurance. You hope you don't have to use it, but whenever you do need to use it, you're so glad you have it there.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

That's right. I had a boss one time he used to say the contracts are not written for the people in the room. They're written for the people that, you know, may follow them or when stuff gets sideways or somebody leaves or whatever it might be, so that everybody's clear and each team has clear expectations uh from the jump. That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Can I can I think that reminds me of something, and it just it makes me so upset that I need to talk about this. So there is an online casting site, I will not say which one it is, but they they sent me a contract for a job, and the terms in the contract were not what the job was offering. Like it was something like in perpetuity, um, broadcast usage. And this was like a corporate narration video. And I said, um, they sent the contract. I said, okay, yeah, I just made a few changes, like, and then it's good to go. And they said, no, uh, there's no changes. It's just boilerplate. So don't worry, we'll go by the terms of what's in the job posting. And that was the person, that was the person on behalf of the casting site saying, don't worry, it's boilerplate. I'm like, I I am so, I can't believe that you are directing voice talent and telling them that this is okay because it's not. What what you said is exactly the reason why it's not okay. Because whenever she quits or moves on to another job, even the brand, just say they have a new marketing team, they're gonna go back to what was signed on the contract. So I ended up losing that job. And I'm glad that I lost that job. But just because someone tells you, oh, it's just boilerplate, that does not mean it's okay to sign. Even if they, it seems like they're helping you out and giving you advice. So just please, if you've got an inkling about something and someone says, don't worry about it, no, worry about it. Pay attention to that.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah. It's just it's frustrating because I know that a lot of people they lean on other industry professionals to like they're like, is this okay? I'm not sure. You know, I I've worked with a lot of contracts, but a lot of people haven't. So just I had to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

So we've gone through the, let's say we've gone through the quoting process, and I've sent the quote over to the client, and they come back and they go, Man, we love your work. We'd love to work with you, but we just can't afford it. And they come back with, let's say, 20, 30, 40, 50% of the rate. What does uh and a smart business voiceover entrepreneur, what does a smart business person do in that case?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

It's a good, good uh question to bring up because there are times like I said at the beginning, most budgets are flexible. Occasionally there are some that they just they can't they can't bump it up. I personally have a few rules on when I'll accept a lower rate. Again, your business, you can run it however you like. But for me, it's uh if it's bulk, if it's bulk work, um, I do think there's value in that. And not the promise of do one job now and we're gonna have 40 over the course of the next year. It's like, no, no, no, like I need this, it needs to be one project or a contract signed or something. Um, if it's a high volume client, so there are some rosters I'm on where I get jobs sent to me every day, pretty much. Um, that there's a lot, for me, there's a lot of value in not having to audition, just a job showing up in my inbox. Another situation is if if they're an ongoing client, like a production company, and they normally send me great jobs, but this time they're like, look, this budget or this client just doesn't have the budget. I'll be like, okay. Or if it's slow, if I if I don't have a lot of other work going on right now and it's not too much below industry standard. But in that case, I think everyone should do this. I will always put on the invoice what the rate should be, and then a discount line. Again, what we were talking about, it goes back to if they leave and someone else has to come in and figure out, oh, what'd we pay the voice talent last time? Oh, we paid them this much. That's their rate. They need to see the invoice and realize, oh, that was a discounted rate. This is what so in that case, it's all all about educating them. And it's not always like people are trying to like scam you and br. Sometimes they just genuinely don't understand how things work. And it's it's just you helping them understand it more so that next time they know and they can budget more appropriately.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

So if I do have to walk away, how do I best do that?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

I always say, I say, I just never burn a bridge. Um, there's one bridge I burned, actually. I didn't mind that because I found out that he was signing all these things on my behalf. I got accidentally, he had the same name as the engineer, and I reached out to the engineer. I was like, Oh, can I get the details for invoicing? And he said, Oh, it was in the contract you signed. I said, I didn't sign a contract. So he forwarded me the contract, and the rate was way higher than the guy was gonna pay me. And he and he had signed on my behalf, even spelled my name wrong. I was furious. So in that case, I said, I do not ever want to work with you again.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

We're done here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah. But if it's if it's just any other situation, um, I would just say, look, I'm I'm so sorry. I just I can't. Um it's important for my industry to maintain a certain l budget level. Uh if you do, you know, if an opportunity does come up where there's a higher budget in the future, I would love to work together. Um, and and I wish you the best. Or something like that. Like I always try and be polite and you just you never want to burn a bridge because again, you don't know, maybe that's just one client and they're kind of new to all this. And a year from now, they might be working for some massive ad agency and be like, you know, she was good and she was really nice. Did yeah, she turned it down, but she wasn't rude about it. And yeah, I'd like to maybe bring her into the mix.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

And especially, I think, not to not to pile on here, but uh especially when you're working with middle people, like a production house or a, you know, maybe it's a recording studio, because they're gonna have all kinds of different clients. They're not the ones that set the budgets. So, you know, if you're if you're gonna be emotionally fragile and lash out at that intermediary, that's just stupid because they're gonna have other clients with budgets that are way bigger. And if you're a pain in the ass to work with on the low budget clients, well, you're certainly gonna be a nightmare on the high budget clients, and they're not coming back.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Yeah. And it has happened where they've come back and they've said, you know, we didn't have the budget for that project, but we'd love to have you audition for this new one that we have coming up.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

So uh oftentimes, and this one, uh, it took me a long time to kind of come up with a plan for myself on this. Uh you got a project afoot, right? Uh, looks good. Uh everything is moving down the field, uh, the quote's been accepted, uh, you don't have a script yet, but uh it's as far as you know, good to go. And then suddenly, radio silence. The client ghosts. Maybe it's a week, maybe it's two, maybe it's a month. What do you do when everything just stops for no apparent reason? Or what do you don't do when that same thing happens?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I mean, if they've already they've taken you on, I mean, there's clearly something major that's happened. I did have that once where rate was agreed on, got the even got the scripts. Uh they said send it back, you know, within the blah, blah, blah. And then 10 minutes later, my agent said, wait, hold up. They said they're waiting on some script adjustments. So I did. And then never heard from them again. And what I found out later is that there were some big scandals on the news and everything, and then the company completely shut down. So I was like, okay, I get that. That's why they went radio silent. Um, I would follow up. Um, especially if you've been back and forth like day over the course of like a day or a couple of days, I'd follow up pretty soon, like a day or two. Uh, and then maybe a week later, and then just like if they've gone radio silent, there's a reason for it, and they clearly don't want to talk to you and tell you why. So I would just I'd leave it.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Then to that point, I'll jump in on what I think not to do, and that is don't start making up stories in your head. 99 times out of a hundred, it has nothing to do with you.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Right?

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Uh Derv, you've been fantastically generous today uh with your time and your knowledge and your expertise. And you're also offering the VO boardroom folks uh a great free bonus here. It's called the Vio Rate Card Template. Streamline your rates and make quoting for non-broadcast work easier by having your own rate card on hand to reference any time you need it. And uh this freebie will provide you with a template to create your own rate card as well as a guide on exactly how to uh fill it out. We will put that link uh right below this video on your page in the VO Boardroom at VOBoardroom.com. Dervla Trainer, it is always a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Thanks so much. Always a pleasure talking to you, Paul.