SPEAKER_00 0:00

And welcome back to the VO boardroom. Our last speaker is a VO industry expert who actually has more of a 360-degree view of this business than most people I know. Over two decades of experience, both as a voice talent and as an on-air talent in radio in a major market in Canada, he's translated his deep industry knowledge into co-founding the Vocal Agency. If you haven't heard of it, one of Canada's premier uh VO talent agencies. In fact, he happens to be my Canadian agent as well. Whether he's advocating for talent, championing the human over AI, or teaching actors how to build sustainable careers, he knows exactly what it takes to thrive on both sides of the mic. Please give a warm welcome to the co-founder of the vocal agency, Jeffrey Sabrani. Jeff, it's great to see you.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

It's great to see you as well, Paul. Thank you for inviting me. Uh, it's an honor.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Well, and thank you for agreeing and being here and sharing your expertise. I mentioned in that intro that you spent 20 years behind the mic, both as a voice talent and as an on-air talent. And so you're one of the only, like you're the only agent I've ever met that was actually a voice actor. Uh tell me how that shapes how you uh advocate for and how you work with talent.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah, I think it's uh empathy would be the word because I understand what it means to be in the boot alone, and you know, since 2020, uh in your wardrobe. Can I say wardrobe in closet uh is more appropriate, uh, in the dark with a little screen the mic, and people talking in and sometimes leaving you for minutes or an hour talking to themselves uh about uh the the the the work you you did and so uh I I understand what's uh how it's uh how the talent feels in lots of situations because I had the chance to live almost every situation possible and in the the closet for the first time uh during the pandemic I I I spoke to uh the buyer because the buyer uh asked me a question and I insert the buyer and then the veo director then told my agent it's not acceptable, but we were in the dark in our closet for the first time. So uh I know all these things and uh I think to I I try to to advocate for talent uh with all the reality of being a talent these days in this new uh era of uh VO business. Lots of change since the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Absolutely. I told somebody today, my how this b business has changed in 50 years. Hell, how it's changed even in the last 10 years uh is just sort of crazy. Um so you made the switch from uh voice talent, on air talent, to talent agent. What was the biggest surprise that you first encountered when you made that switch? I learned a lot of things about myself, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Uh I learned that sometimes um I can have uh hard emotions when uh negotiation happens and it doesn't end like I want to end uh negotiation, or when I'm being challenged uh by a producer uh on clauses uh in a contract, because every day uh we think agent is glamorous and but most of the work is reviewing contract, make sure everything is fine, make sure we take out uh take off uh language like unlimited lift uh edits uh edits in any way possible. So there's a lot of this and there's a lot of negotiation, and I learned that I need to stay focused and calm. Like in my life in general, I'm very I'm Zen in general, but I learned that in business uh I can be a little firm and uh yeah, it is so this is a process. Uh, and I I've been learning about ego as well. I I have an ego, uh everyone does. Uh but sometimes I think it's it's best to leave the ego out of the equation and to uh always remind yourself that attitude is the key talent as well, but maybe in a ratio of a ratio of uh 40% talent, 60% attitude. So there's a I'm learning a lot every day, and I love the challenge. It's a it's a great business, and uh yeah, so it's a learning process, uh, I would say. And uh surprise? Not really. I I don't have any uh uh surprise, maybe about the you know the forms. There's a lot of things, tax forms, uh in US talent, we have to deal with i9, w9, the the I think there's four forms every time uh XR Talent Highland or Talent Payment Services or in the States the team company is involved. There's a lot of it. Uh it's time consuming, more than I thought. In fact, the most surprise is I always thought I'm rich in time because at the radio and voice acting, you can work a few hours and you get good pay for it, and the rest you you enjoy life. But now I'm 6 a.m. to six p.m. mini-minute. So you decided to give over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

But I love it. I love I love the work. That's fantastic. Uh so you know, you you were a talent for a very long time. Uh how does that shape and inform the feedback that you give to your voice actors on your roster when they're submitting auditions, when they're doing projects?

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Yeah. Uh I am a little maybe biased, uh, because being a talent uh in the days, uh it was not conversational, it was not uh real and authentic. So I had this in the when I began, I had to take out the radio guy in my VO career. And so uh I'm very good to give feedback if there's something like this, if there's a talent with this uh tendency as well. Um but I love the work, my tal. I'm I'm gonna give you one example of a feedback that I uh I send to everyone because I was amazed by every auditions. Uh and it didn't serve the talent perfectly because I I was a little biased. Uh I love the work from my talent, but if if someone asked for a particular feedback, yes, I'm gonna take the time to listen and uh to listen as an agent, but put myself in the shoes of the producer as well, uh, because I I did some VO directing directing as well. Uh yeah, so I I think it's an advantage, uh, but sometimes I I I I love the I love the work of my talent uh too much. So uh uh in my new shoes as an agent. Uh but you know, I always say there's a casting for everything. Sometimes I'm sure oh this talent is gonna book the job. It's it is audition is wow, it's in my ear, it's perfect as an agent and as a voice actor, but in the end, it's very subjective. Uh you we never know. So, one thing I I have to say, and I tell talent uh the same thing. My ratio back then, uh I would say like uh 2015 was 10 auditions for one job, but it's it's not the same anymore. We're not in the same business, so you have to audition more and more, maybe 30, 40 auditions for one job. The ratio changed. There's more competition, there's more VO talents out there. So don't get discouraged. Uh, I I I want to be re reassure everyone. It's don't keep at it. Audition, audition. It don't take it personally if you don't book the job. The ratio change. We're not in 2015 anymore. It's a completely different game.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Absolutely it is. Again, and again, even from uh from 10 years ago. Um, when when actors are submitting to vocal, what do you and your co-founder Fred, what makes to you guys a talent stand out?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah, first it's uh the way they approach us. So uh hi, uh I want to be part of the roster. I heard from uh another talent, and uh I'm here, I'm uh so I'm located where I am uh Source Connect equip. Uh I have uh, for example, a Snizer uh microphone, and uh when I do video game and uh characters uh animation, I have this uh Neumann for a commercial, and uh this is a link or ideally I would say uh attach file to my commercial demo, my animation, my political, every genre you have a demo in. Uh so in one clear, simple email, not too long, a few lines, and if it's a referral from another talent or a producer or a manager that we uh are used to work with, it's it's it's great as well because it's already like like you would say in English, vet.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, already vetted, sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, vetted, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Uh in fact, I just had that conversation this morning with a talent who was uh trying to figure out the agency world, and I said to her, exactly what you said. If you can get a referral from a talent that already has a relationship with an agent that you want to work with, well, you're halfway there, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

It's uh I think it's a it's a plus. It's a big plus. And the demo as well, the voice, and you know, it's like uh in French, I would say it's a coup de cœur. It means um we're seduced uh by the voice, by the way, the pe the the the talent, uh deliver a message. Yeah, we there there has to be uh emotional connection. Uh because we we we uh we you Fred and I every week we listen to a bunch of demos and we decide okay, uh he's in, she's in, or uh we we we can't work with the talent. At this point, and if we say no, we're gonna give some advice uh in exchange. But I think it's important. We see the potential. Um, there's one time that I didn't reply back. So the person told me, uh, can I get part of the roster? How does it work? No demo. Uh so I explain how it how the business works and uh what I uh expecting from the person. And the person told me, um, does it worth it? Is it worth it to put all this effort in? And this I think this is only this is the only time I didn't reply back. So because it's an attitude that is in incompatible with uh or point of view uh or philosophy here at Volkhol. And I think every agency in the world, in fact.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Well, and really it's it's a life philosophy because you have to invest before you get any return.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

If you're gonna get anything in this life, you have to put something into it. And usually that's hard work.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah, and in uh you, uh American and um English speaking, uh you say, and I love this word, meritocracy.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Meritocracy, yes. Meritocracy. Meritocracy, yes. And and that's i life is never a complete meritocracy, but in broad strokes it is, right? The more you put in, generally the more that you will get out. Let's flip the coin on submissions for a minute, Jeff. What are some red flags? What are what are some things that people shouldn't do? I won't say ever, but generally shouldn't do when they submit to Vocal or any other agency.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

I think if you uh send an email, I want to be part of the roster, uh, how does it work? And there is no demo, there's nothing there. Just put your portfolio uh synthetize one, just a few lines like we uh spoke earlier with these important details. Uh I am located where I am working in this field since 10 years, 15 years, or if you just started, just tell us. Uh be true, be authentic, but have your demo attached or at least the link. And if you have a IMDB uh profile page, uh you can yeah, put these details because the the these uh are important details, but just not just one line, I want to be part of the roster, uh how does it work? Uh yeah, and and another important thing, and all my life it worked well for me. I don't know if it's gonna work well for you, but uh in English you say uh go getter, go getter uh and be go getter. So go getter yep. If we don't response in three weeks, just send another email. Hey, I want a follow-up. This is very important because we are sometimes overwhelmed. Uh we have Mary's Karine uh in the coordination and the paperwork and administrative uh stuff, and we're two agents. So our time some sometimes we sometimes we're overwhelmed. So just uh get back to us and uh you have a good chance doing so.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

And the only thing I'll throw in with this, Jeff, is that the advice that you're giving is specific to you and Fred and vocal, right? Other agencies might want you to wait six months, they might want you to want to want you to wait four months. You've gotta you've gotta pay attention to what the agent asks of you so that you can then follow up accordingly. So I just want to put that out there because not all agencies are the same.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah, go a googetter, but don't exaggerate. Uh we we had one uh example. Uh the the guy was too much of a googetter. Every week, uh get back to us uh every week, it's a little intense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah. Give the agent room to breathe and certainly pay attention to whatever they ask you to do. So let's say I've been lucky enough, and in my case I have, to join your roster. What when you're sitting back working with a bunch of talent over a long period of time, what separates talent that book consistently from talent who struggle to book consistently?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, I would say audition and uh consistency. Uh consistency is the key in everything. So audition, don't get discouraged. Uh you'll have an opportunity, even if you audition 40 times without no feedback, no booking, sometimes maybe, and we have many talents uh with uh you know uh recurrence gig. Uh so every week, every month they are the the official voice of a brand, of a TV. So and and there's the renewal as well. So you you might book just once a year, but if it's get if it gets renewed, it's interesting. So consistency and look uh your emails, not too much, you don't have to be intense about it, but I I I love to I for me it's a dopamine thing. Uh I love the emails. And when I was uh a talent, having an email from my agency was wow. Every audition I was thrilled by it, by it. And I I I can't wait to go in the boot. And oh, this is important as well. Very important, because that's one of the things I learned about other talents, because now I see how every talent works for me. Never put too much time in an audition. It's it's personal, but I'm I'm putting it out there, just hear me out to because otherwise you have the tendency to to see everything as a mountain. I have to climb a mountain, I'm gonna do it later. Uh in French, it's procrastinate, uh doing it. Yeah, procrastination, and it's bad. So don't see audition as a mountain. If it's a 5k job, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, exactly. Audition is 10 minutes. If it's a 15k job, 20 minutes. If it's more, for example, uh uh 100k, you you put a little more time, but not too much, but because anyway, anyway, they're gonna select you and uh you're they're gonna um direct you uh uh another way. So you you're in your head alone, in your closet, don't think too much. Uh just give them a great example of your of your versatility. Uh so you're able to do two reads, different one. Don't put too much time, don't see audition as a month, and this is very important. Tip.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

I think d not overthinking things is uh that's a skill that I've had to learn over the course of my life, and I think it's so important, especially when it comes to auditions. I I kind of want to wrap with this, Jeff, uh, because being the the VO educator on the business side, I want to get your perspective on this, and that is you've got both sides of the glass going on. You're an agent, you're a voice talent. What as a business person is the biggest mindset shift that voice actors can make to become better business people, to be better at the skill of the voiceover business.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah. Take your time when you quote. It's important to read all the lines, every details, ask questions to the buyer, the ad agency, the creative, the casting director. Uh it's very important, and I think every gig has to be uh with a contract, solid one. Uh don't hesitate to change clause. Uh we had uh now de facto, which means uh every time, a AI clause uh to every contracts. Uh we uh we take off uh every uh unlimited lift, uh edits, cut downs. Uh so the negotiation is important, and what I learned about negotiation it's because phone call is yeah, it's happening. It's we we still work by phone, but most of the time it's by email. So it's easier, okay? Because what what I do often of times, like you say in the US, oftentimes, sorry, not the the oftentimes, uh what I do is I request for my I I do all my requests uh or a few at a time, and and and then the person answer but I don't answer yet. And then oftentimes it works. I get what I want for the talent. Uh so take your time, be calm. So in the beginning, I I explained earlier, I was like not impulsive because I take things by heart. It's my business, of course. Uh so Fred and I business, so I take things uh very seriously, but I I learned that sometimes I have oh I I I can be uh not impulsive, it's not impulsivity, but you don't have to hack too too too fast. So take your time, read everything, every details, ask for a contract. Uh and if you use platforms, and I'm not against platforms, but you uh as a talent, there's a good guide. You can uh us agency, we know the price, we know uh I can quote quote for everything, I have everything in my head, but there's a very good guide. Uh Talent could use, and I think sometimes it's better than unions. I can speak about uh Canadian unions, they don't decline, they don't separate, for example, digital usage by connected TV, pre-roll, paid socials. They they don't have this uh much uh precision in their rates, it's just uh one rate for everything. It's sometimes it's uh it's lower than the guide I'm about to uh pulled you know about this guide. Uh GV double A, I think it's a good tool for uh talent when uh negotiation and and and and some and there's a talent, um a great talent. She does great money as well with with her voice, with her talent. She she's a top, she's a premium talent. And she told me when she visited Montreal a few uh few weeks ago, and I will remember this. She told me, you know, uh you take the time to explain to a buyer, but because there's a lot of new buyers, they don't know, they think uh voice it's 500 bucks, and you explain why. You explain, okay, you know why I uh this price? Because it's three months, it's one cycle of usage in in this market, this market. So this is why. And in and and then they understand, okay, perfect, and uh they're gonna pay the price, and they don't want to be uh in a reputational um situation. For example, if if it's a great buyer, but he's new in the business, or if it's a a government uh government organization, they want to pay the fair price, they want to to be ethical in business. So just take the time to explain to them why and how it's working. And if you don't know, just ask your agent. Uh go to GV double A uh you know, there's a lot of tools out there, and uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Yeah, we'll put the link to the GVAA rate guide in uh below this video. Also, below this video, Jeff has been extremely generous, uh, and he is giving away essentially what he said was all in his head, which is it's called the Agent Advantage. Uh, and today's VO business reality, it's a free download, and you can get that only through the VO boardroom. Uh, so jump on that. The link is in the description of the video below this video. Jeffrey Sabrani, thank you so much for stopping by the VO boardroom. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise from both sides of the glass. It's been an absolute pleasure, sir. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

It's been a pleasure as well, Paul. Thanks to everyone. Thanks for the invite, and uh have a great day.